Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

[Lord Nerevar]

If you take the Arcturian Heresy to be true, and it does do a good job on filling in certain jobs, Tiber Septim was born in Alcaire, an island off of High Rock, not Atmora, so he is not a pure bred 'Son of Skryim', and while it could be said that the Third Empire was forged through the blood and steel of the Nords, the Cyrodiils arguably made more of a contribution, as they sided with Tiber Septim from the beginning, as Cuhlecain (the King Tiber Septim fought with) was a petty King in the Colovian Estates. I think Colovians more specifically though. While the Nords did fight with the Colovians at Old Hroldan, they did not follow him in some of his later campaigns, and properly joined him after witnessing the Thu'um at the Battle of Sancre Tor (which involved a sacrifice on the part of Cyrodiils that did not assault the fortress, the force that baited the allied Nord-Breton army). The Nords fought Tiber Septim in the beginning, so I think that you are overestimating their part in the rise of the Third Empire, and downplaying the part of the Cyrodiils. I say Cyrodiils because the term 'Imperials' was not used until after the founding of the Third Empire, which kind of leads me to my next point. This being that they were also referred to as 'Cyro-Nords'. Though it is a fabrication on the part of the Imperial Government (but most of this blame on the Nords and Imperials having their origins altered is on Tiber Septim, as he used this propaganda to further unify his Empire) that the Nedes are Atmorans, and also the fact that the origins of races in The Elder Scrolls is always murky, it is certain that the Imperials and Nords were at one time, one race, and it is fairly likely that both races originated from Skyrim, more specifically, High Hrothgar. Some humans, the Nedes, stayed in Tamriel, while those who later became the Atmorans left Tamriel for Atmora. You guys all know the stories of the Atmoran return, such as Ysgramor's companions, and those most true to the Atmoran bloodline is the Nords. The Imperials are mostly made up of three races, the Cyro-Nords, Nibenese and Nedes, which does suggest that the Imperials are, really, Atmorans who settle further south than their Nordic cousins and integrated with the already indigenous Men. I think that if the Nords do indeed claim Skyrim as theirs, the Imperials have a strong claim too, because both races most likely originated in Skyrim, and are very similar races, except for the fact the Imperials are closer to the native peoples, who I think who also have a great claim on Skyrim too, seeing as they didn't leave Tamriel. I find the Atmoran claim to Skyrim similar to that of Israel's, as the Jews did rule modern day Israel for a time in the past, and are now (well, not know, the late 1940s, but still, relatively close) taking their land back, claiming it is theirs. The Atmorans left Skyrim, and return claiming it for their own, too, probably because they originated there. Whatever claim would they have? Also, while I do agree Grimnir, the Nords have been in Skyrim before the Empire, if you date back to the First Empire, as the one in The Elder Scrolls is the Third Empire, the Empire is not so young. However, I do not think that the age argument is in favour of the Nords, as I previously said, because there are people who would beat the Nord claims on that issue, such as the Nedes. I do not think that I explained by Imperial point well enough though. What I meant was, the Imperials and Nords are related, but the Nords are closer to the Atmorans, whereas the Imperials are closer to the natives, as they come from Nedic and Atmoran breeding. This, I think, quite validates any claims the Imperials would make, maybe even morseo because they are closer to the natives.

[Lord Nerevar]

Also, I forgot to say, Zurin's claim of Tiber's origins are very likely, as it is near impossible that the Tiber Septim was born in Atmora. It was a wastleland by his time, and the last ship from Atmora had already come to Tamriel at that point. It was most likely more of his propaganda, like the Nedes=Atmorans propaganda.

[Vulgruff]

If you take the Arcturian Heresy to be true, and it does do a good job on filling in certain jobs, Tiber Septim was born in Alcaire, an island off of High Rock, not Atmora, so he is not a pure bred 'Son of Skryim', and while it could be said that the Third Empire was forged through the blood and steel of the Nords, the Cyrodiils arguably made more of a contribution, as they sided with Tiber Septim from the beginning, as Cuhlecain (the King Tiber Septim fought with) was a petty King in the Colovian Estates. I think Colovians more specifically though. While the Nords did fight with the Colovians at Old Hroldan, they did not follow him in some of his later campaigns, and properly joined him after witnessing the Thu'um at the Battle of Sancre Tor (which involved a sacrifice on the part of Cyrodiils that did not assault the fortress, the force that baited the allied Nord-Breton army). The Nords fought Tiber Septim in the beginning, so I think that you are overestimating their part in the rise of the Third Empire, and downplaying the part of the Cyrodiils. I say Cyrodiils because the term 'Imperials' was not used until after the founding of the Third Empire, which kind of leads me to my next point. This being that they were also referred to as 'Cyro-Nords'. Though it is a fabrication on the part of the Imperial Government (but most of this blame on the Nords and Imperials having their origins altered is on Tiber Septim, as he used this propaganda to further unify his Empire) that the Nedes are Atmorans, and also the fact that the origins of races in The Elder Scrolls is always murky, it is certain that the Imperials and Nords were at one time, one race, and it is fairly likely that both races originated from Skyrim, more specifically, High Hrothgar. Some humans, the Nedes, stayed in Tamriel, while those who later became the Atmorans left Tamriel for Atmora. You guys all know the stories of the Atmoran return, such as Ysgramor's companions, and those most true to the Atmoran bloodline is the Nords. The Imperials are mostly made up of three races, the Cyro-Nords, Nibenese and Nedes, which does suggest that the Imperials are, really, Atmorans who settle further south than their Nordic cousins and integrated with the already indigenous Men. I think that if the Nords do indeed claim Skyrim as theirs, the Imperials have a strong claim too, because both races most likely originated in Skyrim, and are very similar races, except for the fact the Imperials are closer to the native peoples, who I think who also have a great claim on Skyrim too, seeing as they didn't leave Tamriel. I find the Atmoran claim to Skyrim similar to that of Israel's, as the Jews did rule modern day Israel for a time in the past, and are now (well, not know, the late 1940s, but still, relatively close) taking their land back, claiming it is theirs. The Atmorans left Skyrim, and return claiming it for their own, too, probably because they originated there. Whatever claim would they have? Also, while I do agree Grimnir, the Nords have been in Skyrim before the Empire, if you date back to the First Empire, as the one in The Elder Scrolls is the Third Empire, the Empire is not so young. However, I do not think that the age argument is in favour of the Nords, as I previously said, because there are people who would beat the Nord claims on that issue, such as the Nedes. I do not think that I explained by Imperial point well enough though. What I meant was, the Imperials and Nords are related, but the Nords are closer to the Atmorans, whereas the Imperials are closer to the natives, as they come from Nedic and Atmoran breeding. This, I think, quite validates any claims the Imperials would make, maybe even morseo because they are closer to the natives.

That's like saying Americans have a claim to England because we came from the same place. While it is true that Imperials and Nords are of the same race, so are Bretons. The only humans not of one race is the Redguard. These other men don't have a claim because they haven't lived there in hundreds of years. The Nords stayed in Skyrim and made it their home, joining the Empire later while the Bretons and Imperials started to diverge racial from mixing with the native population. Even if you make the claim that Imperials have a right to Skyrim that doesn't mean the Empire that that was forged much later does. You can't expect to outlaw a countries religion and expect to still hold that area.

[Lord Nerevar]

If it does resemble WWI, wouldn't the Empire be in the part of Germany? They lost, got beaten down, rose up again, lost again.....
If the second great war comes, the Stormcloaks would aid the Empire. Hell, I might even join the Legion, but Skyrim deserves to be free. Eventually, as with all empires in history, they will have to end and each country will get it's freedom. Why not have it now?

Forgive me if I used the quote function wrong, I have not used it before. Anyway, I do not think that it is an accurate assessment of the Great War to say that the Empire 'lost'. I would say it was more of a stalemate, as both the Third Empire and the Second Aldmeri Dominion were shattered during the Great War. The goals of the Thalmor leave no room for peace, and it is very, very likely that the might of the Second Aldmeri Dominion is all but spent. The Second Aldmeri Dominion surprised the Third Empire, attacking from hidden camps in Elsweyr. The Second Aldmeri Dominion will lose this advantage in another Great War. Men reproduce much, much faster than Mer, and I think that the Empire most likely would have a superior weapons and armour smithing industry, which would mean that a period of peace would not be beneficial to the Second Aldmeri Dominion, and in fact, is their downfall. Every day that passes, the might of the Third Empire is growing, and it is growing at faster rate than the Second Aldmeri Dominion's. Why don't they stop this and attack before the Empire is too strong? The answer, the Second Aldmeri Dominion is not strong enough. The war was not fought for territorial gain, or for power, as the Concordat would make much more sense then, they did it as part of their plan to unravel Creation. Peace holds no place in their agendas, and they would not make peace unless they absolutely had to. This suggests the Second Aldmeri Dominion cannot field a strong army. The Third Empire also managed to circumvent certain clauses in the Concordat, such as the Hammerfell issue, as the Legions left behind in Hammerfell before the Battle of the Red Ring stayed, being discharged as 'invalids' before Decianus, or something like that, lead his army to Cyrodiil. These 'invalids' allowed the Empire to continue fighting in Hammerfell, without breaking the Concordat. The ban on Talos worship was not properly enforced until Ulfric started causing trouble, which drew the attention of the Thalmor to Skyrim. The Concordat, in many respects, was just as bad, if not worse, for the Second Aldmeri Dominion than the Third Empire. I would call the Thalmor WWI Germany, because of the Schlieffen Plan. This plan outlined that the Germans should attack their weaker, but faster to mobilise front, France, in a very short time, then wheel around to face the stronger, faster mobilising enemy, the Russians. This was to avoid a two front war, however, the Miracle of the Marne halted German progess into France, and the retreated slightly (the Germans), and fortified the area they fell back too, if I remember correctly, leading to four years of trench warfare. Just after this, one German general (I can't remember who) is reported to have told the Kaiser that they had lost the war. The Second Aldmeri Dominion is similar, they needed to win in their first attempt at the war, or they would lose.

[Lord Nerevar]

That's like saying Americans have a claim to England because we came from the same place. While it is true that Imperials and Nords are of the same race, so are Bretons. The only humans not of one race is the Redguard. These other men don't have a claim because they haven't lived there in hundreds of years. The Nords stayed in Skyrim and made it their home, joining the Empire later while the Bretons and Imperials started to diverge racial from mixing with the native population. Even if you make the claim that Imperials have a right to Skyrim that doesn't mean the Empire that that was forged much later does. You can't expect to outlaw a countries religion and expect to still hold that area.

While that is true, just because the Nords moved there does not make it rightfully theirs. The same argument could be said of any races. Say the Dark Elves invaded Skyrim, the Nords would believe it would be their homeland, even most likely after a relatively long time, and I do not think you would then claim that the Dunmer deserve it more. That would validate the claims of the races that lived in Skyrim before the Nords, and the Nedes have a greater claim than the Atmorans using this logic, and as the Imperials are the closest living relatives to the Nedes, the Imperials would therefore have a better claim. The Americans are not any closer to the natives than the English, but the Imperials are closer to the natives than the Nords, so I do not think the analogy fits.

[Vulgruff]

I agree with your point about the Great War, especially because the Thalmor are Nazi. While the Imperials can claim that its their homeland, it is irrelevant. Your going back to history, well in all reality the citizens of the Empire and Skyrim don't care about. The Empire isn't making the claim Skyrim belongs to Imperials they are making the claim that Skyrim is a province, and must stay that way.

As far as Talos being outlawed, you would have to look at the Siege of Markarth. When Ulfric took Markarth back from the forsworn, he told the Empire that for taking back the city they must allow the free open worship of Talos in its walls. Having no choice the Empire agreed. They later went back on their word, banned Talos worship, and threw Ulfric into jail. The fact is they outlawed it in the first place, whether it was enforced or not. They bent a knee to the Elves and banned the founder of their Empire, who all evidence points to DID ascend to Divine-ship. Even if the Empire does regain its strength, they wont ever become what they were. The Empire hasn't seen a good leader since Martin. The Redguards will NEVER rejoin the Empire, and neither will the High Elves. They could get Valenwood and Elswyer back, but not without resistance. Empires fall because of bad leadership. Its what happened to Rome. The Empire will never climb out of its state of political corruption and will fall, eventually.

The fact is the Country of Skyrim deserves to be free. They fought and bleed for the Empire and hasn't seen a return on it. They didn't want the peace with High Elves but they weren't given a choice. Imperialism is considered an insult for a reason in modern society.

[Arnier the fallen]

so I've had a chuckle at this and sat on the sides for a while and now im gunna join in for the giggles.


so on the subject of who really has claim to Skyrim it's the Falmer and if they were still around the Dwemer, sorry its true they were there first really

on the Empire making claim to skyrim lets face it Skyrim has been part of every empire involving Cyrodil since the slave rebellions of the first era, claiming scumbag racist and how dare you denounce my god isn't helping anyone, if the Thalmo arent aloud to say you cant worship this god because we don't want you to the nords aren't aloud to say you have to worship this god because we say so and he founded an empire

right ive had may say, feel free to continue arguing while i get my popcorn

[Lord Nerevar]

I agree with your point about the Great War, especially because the Thalmor are Nazi. While the Imperials can claim that its their homeland, it is irrelevant. Your going back to history, well in all reality the citizens of the Empire and Skyrim don't care about. The Empire isn't making the claim Skyrim belongs to Imperials they are making the claim that Skyrim is a province, and must stay that way.

I would disagree with the point that they don't care about history, as the Nords feel their culture is being eroded, and that Skyrim is their homeland, and I think that the Nords are rather proud of their history. I agree, too, that the Empire doesn't claim that it belongs to Skyrim, but I think I was relating that point more towards earlier posts in the thread, relating more to the 'Skyrim for the Nords' and the Imperials having no stake in Skyrim, I think.

As far as Talos being outlawed, you would have to look at the Siege of Markarth. When Ulfric took Markarth back from the forsworn, he told the Empire that for taking back the city they must allow the free open worship of Talos in its walls. Having no choice the Empire agreed. They later went back on their word, banned Talos worship, and threw Ulfric into jail. The fact is they outlawed it in the first place, whether it was enforced or not. They bent a knee to the Elves and banned the founder of their Empire, who all evidence points to DID ascend to Divine-ship. Even if the Empire does regain its strength, they wont ever become what they were. The Empire hasn't seen a good leader since Martin. The Redguards will NEVER rejoin the Empire, and neither will the High Elves. They could get Valenwood and Elswyer back, but not without resistance. Empires fall because of bad leadership. Its what happened to Rome. The Empire will never climb out of its state of political corruption and will fall, eventually.

'Causing trouble' might have been bad wording on my part, I mean to say Ulfric's actions, including the Markarth Incident. I agree 100%, Tiber Septim did become a part of Talos. Not the entirety of Talos, the Oversoul is also made up of Zurin Arctus and Ysmir Wulfharth, but indeed he did reach divinity. That is evident in certain events of The Elder Scrolls games, such as Wulf in Morrowind, Talos' blessing (or something like that, I haven't played Knights of the Nine in a long time, but I know that it was something to do with Talos that let you defeat Umaril permanently by destroying his spirit, not just his physical body) and the blessings you get from his shrines. All of the gods in the major pantheons are real, as The Elder Scrolls gods work on the basis that the more people believe in the God, the more powerful the God is, and that if enough people believed in this God, that God would become real. You truely have to belief it though. I disagree with the Hammerfell statement. For one, never is too definite, especially in a world like Nirn, where unpredictable things happen on a daily basis. Also, the core of the army of the army that drove the military of the Second Aldmeri Dominion was made up of these 'invalids', as I mentioned earlier, so I do not think that Hammerfell has that much of a grudge against the Empire because to the outside world it looked like The Third Empire had abandoned Hammerfell, but the Redguards who fought alongside the remnants of the Legions would not think in the same way, I would have thought. I again would disagree on the Empire having bad leadership. I'm sure the same would have been said of the Summerset Isle before the Tiber Wars, and of course, no one predicted the Numidium, so I would say that they could become part of the Empire too.

*Potential spoliers for those who have not competed the Dark Brotherhood questline in Skyrim. I'm sure you all have, but, better safe than sorry.



When you have to assassinate Emperor Titus Mede II, his acceptance of death, and what he says, about it being destiny and you having to do it does share many similarities to how Uriel Septim VII. I think that he is rather similar to Martin and Uriel, and if I didn't know any better, I would say that the Dragon Blood ran through his veins.



*End spoiler* I have no idea how to do spoiler tags

Also, Titus Mede II was a very capable general during the Great War. People though his decision to withdraw from the Imperial City was folly at first, but after the victorious Battle of the Red Rings, which also had exceptional leadership of behalf of Titus, with the tactics used their being hailed by strategists as genius. The Empire still has very good generals to support it. I particularly like Decianus, who fought in Hammerfell, but I believe the General of the Nordic Army at the Battle of the Red Rings was also very good. I think that the Concordat in a way was probably neccessary, I would have thought that pressure would have been on the Empire by the public, who had suffered atrocities at the hands of the Second Aldmeri Dominion. They would've probably wanted to end that war, to avoid more suffering.

The fact is the Country of Skyrim deserves to be free. They fought and bleed for the Empire and hasn't seen a return on it. They didn't want the peace with High Elves but they weren't given a choice. Imperialism is considered an insult for a reason in modern society.

I agree that Skyrim deserves to be free, any country does, but free from what, is the question. I do not think succession from the Empire is freedom, and it must be noted that other races fought and bled for the Empire too. The fact is that I do not think anyone, Septim or no, would have won the Great War, in the sense of retaking the lands of the Empire. They didn't see a return on it, but they did not fight the Aldmeri for a return, they fought to protect the lands and customs of the Empire. A country who fights a war like the Great War and expects a return is going to get nothing, unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by a 'return'. The Empire did not want the terms of the Concordat either, but it was the terms of a treaty to end a massively devestating war, the worst that any living being on Tamriel had seen, and as I said above, the attacks on civilian targets would make them clamour for peace, I would have thought. I don't think that the people knew at the time at what cost it would be, but I think that most people would have wanted the War over, one way or another, to end the chaos of the War. Maybe a while after the signing, people might have started to oppose it but after the losses of the Great War, I think the immediate effect on the conscious of the people would have been that they would have wanted peace. I do think the the Empire is not real-life Imperialism, as it is a collection of races that form an organisation, like the Holy Roman Empire, and I do not think that the races are exploited, like in typical Imperialism. The other races have more of a say than in real life Imperialism. Also, as I said in a previous post, I do not think that the Concordat was that bad for the Empire, and I think it was worse for the Second Aldmeri Dominion, and I do not think Skyrim was betrayed, either, because I think in the long run, it will benefit Skyrim, and because of the circumstances surrounding its signing. I find that the Empire was acting out of what it though was best, and I do not think that the Concordat would have been harmful, so I do not see it as betrayel because without Ulfric's actions Talos worship would be open, as people had public shrines to him even after the Concordat.

[Lord Nerevar]

My post might not be quite up to par, as I was distracted by some loud noises in the house when writing my post, so some of my points might not be fully explained, or totally coherent.

[Arnier the fallen]

My post might not be quite up to par, as I was distracted by some loud noises in the house when writing my post, so some of my points might not be fully explained, or totally coherent.

i thought it made perfect sense to be honest and a very just argument

[james.steelhaven]

so on the subject of who really has claim to Skyrim it's the Falmer and if they were still around the Dwemer, sorry its true they were there first really

Yea, talk about your disproportionate retributions!! Holy crapola, that was really uncalled for.
Yes, the Snow Elves burnt a city to the ground, no denying that.
Yes, justice needed to be served.
But, damn it Ysgramor, to commit genocide on this scale is a *touch* harsh.

[Arnier the fallen]

so on the subject of who really has claim to Skyrim it's the Falmer and if they were still around the Dwemer, sorry its true they were there first really

Yea, talk about your disproportionate retributions!! Holy crapola, that was really uncalled for.
Yes, the Snow Elves burnt a city to the ground, no denying that.
Yes, justice needed to be served.
But, damn it Ysgramor, to commit genocide on this scale is a *touch* harsh.

also there is the imperial report on Sarthaal that sugests it was a precision strike not an all out attack, which would explain why Ysgramor and his sons were apparently spared.

[Vulgruff]

[quote="Lord Nerevar"]

I agree with your point about the Great War, especially because the Thalmor are Nazi. While the Imperials can claim that its their homeland, it is irrelevant. Your going back to history, well in all reality the citizens of the Empire and Skyrim don't care about. The Empire isn't making the claim Skyrim belongs to Imperials they are making the claim that Skyrim is a province, and must stay that way.

I would disagree with the point that they don't care about history, as the Nords feel their culture is being eroded, and that Skyrim is their homeland, and I think that the Nords are rather proud of their history. I agree, too, that the Empire doesn't claim that it belongs to Skyrim, but I think I was relating that point more towards earlier posts in the thread, relating more to the 'Skyrim for the Nords' and the Imperials having no stake in Skyrim, I think.

You misunderstood what I said, your bringing up points that the people don't cclearly know is true themselves. As you said, the propaganda used to unite the Empire worked and the Nords believe Talos used to be a Nord.

[Vulgruff]

Also, If other races have more say in the Empire, then the peace treaty would never have been signed. The Redguards nor the Nords wanted it. It happened anyways. I also think the majority of Redguards feel abandoned. After they have fought so hard to secure their countries freedom, they won't be willing to go back to an Empire that left them to fend for themselves.

[Lord Nerevar]

[quote]by Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:35 pm

I agree with your point about the Great War, especially because the Thalmor are Nazi. While the Imperials can claim that its their homeland, it is irrelevant. Your going back to history, well in all reality the citizens of the Empire and Skyrim don't care about. The Empire isn't making the claim Skyrim belongs to Imperials they are making the claim that Skyrim is a province, and must stay that way.




I would disagree with the point that they don't care about history, as the Nords feel their culture is being eroded, and that Skyrim is their homeland, and I think that the Nords are rather proud of their history. I agree, too, that the Empire doesn't claim that it belongs to Skyrim, but I think I was relating that point more towards earlier posts in the thread, relating more to the 'Skyrim for the Nords' and the Imperials having no stake in Skyrim, I think.


You misunderstood what I said, your bringing up points that the people don't cclearly know is true themselves. As you said, the propaganda used to unite the Empire worked and the Nords believe Talos used to be a Nord.

But Tiber Septim also had propaganda to make the link between the Nords and the Imperials more pronounced, and even fabricated at times, to make the races look more similar, and the origins too, than they are, even though they are very close without the propaganda. I think that Tiber Septim was a Nord anyway, it is very likely though not confirmed (I think), so the Heresy does not argue that part, just the myth of Atmora. I would agree that they would most likely believe that he was born in Atmora, but some of the propaganda would go towards furthering some of my points such as the link between the Imperials and Skyrim because Tiber Septim used propaganda to unite these two further than they already are. I think it strenghthens some points, but weakens others. Though the Arcturian Heresy wouldn't be too hard to find, I doubt that people who actually find it would read it, let alone believe it.

Also, If other races have more say in the Empire, then the peace treaty would never have been signed. The Redguards nor the Nords wanted it. It happened anyways. I also think the majority of Redguards feel abandoned. After they have fought so hard to secure their countries freedom, they won't be willing to go back to an Empire that left them to fend for themselves.

The point is they weren't left to fend for themselves. As I stated in a previous post, the core of the army that drove the forces of the Second Aldmeri Dominion over the Alik'r Desert was made up of the 'invalids' that Decianus discharged so they did not have to go back to Cyrodiil. The Redguards would know this, fighting alongside them, it would be those outside of Hammerfell, and parts of Cyrodiil, who would think that the Empire abandoned Hammerfell. The Redguards know that did not happen when they continued to fight alongside the Legion after the Concordat.

[Lord Nerevar]

Also, If other races have more say in the Empire, then the peace treaty would never have been signed. The Redguards nor the Nords wanted it. It happened anyways. I also think the majority of Redguards feel abandoned. After they have fought so hard to secure their countries freedom, they won't be willing to go back to an Empire that left them to fend for themselves. .

I still think that people say they opposed the Concordat, but many at the time of the signature would have been relieved at the peaceful resolution of the bloody and chaotic war.

[DanielStormblade]

Puppets, yet they are training to fight against the Thalmo. The great war mirrors WWI and so I expect there to be a second Great War.

Oh... you're training to fight against the Thalmor... yet you let them wonder the roads of Skyrim freely? that's a laugh.

[Lord Nerevar]

by DanielStormblade on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:54 pm



The Rebel wrote:Puppets, yet they are training to fight against the Thalmo. The great war mirrors WWI and so I expect there to be a second Great War.


Oh... you're training to fight against the Thalmor... yet you let them wonder the roads of Skyrim freely? that's a laugh.

The key part there is training, and of course the Empire is not happy with all of the Concordats clauses, and would rather be rid of it. They love Talos as much, if not more judging by organisations like the Talos Cult, as the Nords, and are going to fight back when they feel they are ready.

[Vulgruff]

If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

[DanielStormblade]

If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

Here Here Brother.

[Lord Nerevar]

by Vulgruff on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:06 am

If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

I don't think that I've quite got the had of the quoting thing, like when you guys have the quotes in the quotes. I'll just test it later and delete the result

Back on topic, not all of Skyrim wishes to split from the Empire, and the Empire, I think, are after Ulfric anyway, for Toryyg and Karthwasten. Also, I think that Skyrim's future would be best under the Empire in the post-Second Great War future. A united Tamriel would be able to rebuild much faster.

Also, I am not saying that this is how the Stormcloaks should be described, but in the real world, regimes that oppress their citizens are opposed by the democractic free world. The Stormcloaks could potentially be oppressive to some of the other races, and as Tullius says at Helgen, the Empire is there to restore order and peace, or something along the lines of that.

[Sovngarde]

If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

Here Here Brother.

[Arnier the fallen]

If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

[Lord Nerevar]

by Arnier the fallen on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:17 am



Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.


then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

That's a very... interesting analogy.

[Arnier the fallen]

by Arnier the fallen on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:17 am



Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.


then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

That's a very... interesting analogy.

thank you its one of my favourite sayings and for the life of me i can't remember where i first heard it

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